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kerithwynI had this whole thing I was going to say about how I've been reading comics for four decades, and how the MCU series of movies--this experience--has been completely overwhelming to me in the best way. But I don't have time to wax poetic so consider it said, yeah?
Endgame thoughts past the cut.
Endgame first viewing thoughts
Out of order, random.
I came away feeling...unsettled? And I'm the outlier who enjoyed Infinity War tremendously as a pure comic book experience playing out on screen. This one wasn't as satisfying to me overall.
They made an interesting choice by establishing two things: that the past could not be changed, and moving the time along to five years later. I think most people (including me) thought they would undo the Snap through time travel relatively quickly after the event; even if events couldn't be changed, the effects could be reversed. But in five years, people have grown and changed and moved on--and had kids, who could not be erased. So we end with a sticky compromise, which--as suits its nature--doesn't please everyone. (And presents a hell of a mess for the returned and the lives they reenter, but *Marvel handwaves.*)
(I admit to being wrong about two private predictions: one stone used by each of the six original Avengers, and that the Soul Stone would rebound on Thanos for his selfish sacrifice.)
After squinting over it a bit the time travel does actually make sense and is consistent*, near as I can tell. The returning the stones after the time heists was never about their own timeline; as Bruce says, [paraphrase] it's to prevent spawning a bunch of nasty alternate timelines. I was going to write them out but yay, someone got there first:
https://emisobsessed.tumblr.com/post/184458687634/time-loops-and-alternate-timelines
* Strange does actually reverse time in his movie and Thanos in IW, but I'm willing to concede that the Time Stone can break the rules in its particular domain.
Steve: It's definitely Steve's spotlight, which is great. He gets terrific scenes and the best line: two! words! heh. Of course he can lift Mjolnir, no shock there. Still mulling over the ending. Steve lived the rest of his life in an alternate timeline which means, fic people, this is an enormous playground. Life with Peggy, I'm sure they run the world. He also has accurate knowledge of near-future events--and you can be damn sure he's not going to let Bucky rot in Russian cryofreeze (so there's your Steve/Bucky and/or Steve/Peggy/Bucky opportunities, too*). Steve Rogers in any universe isn't living a quiet life. He can prevent Howard Stark's murder and tell Carol about Thanos gathering the stones. His being there starts with "change one thing" and QUICKLY changes the events of the rest of his timeline. Apparently it all works out okay. He also looked great for well past 100 years old, so the serum was still doing its thing.
(*And also! Does he also go and dig that timeline's native Steve out of the ice? Or prevent him going in at all? I say yes! A Steve for Peggy and a Steve for Bucky. And you get a Steve! And you get a Steve! :D)
Tony: No surprise there. An apt ending to what has been Tony's story from start to finish. I'm satisfied. I've never liked Tony Stark in the comics, but RDJ made him enjoyable.
Natasha: So I'm watching Nat and Clint fight over who gets to die, and -- what went through my mind and boggled me for the rest of the movie was, "They just threw their premiere female character off a cliff." Literally. It's not a fridging and it's a perfectly legitimate character choice, and I respect that the Soul Stone demanding a death price meant something permanent. But...but. Both sacrifices had to be women? I'm not bitter or angry, just...boggled. We'll see how I feel about it on the second viewing. I will say that as a result, the female Avengers assemble bit later on felt more self-congratulatory ("look! look how many women we have even without Black Widow!") than celebratory.
Thor: Deserved better. Big disappointment, not over his obvious depression and guilt and PTSD (all legitimate!), but on making him the butt of a running fat joke. But of course he's still worthy, and he should enjoy his grand space adventure with the morons. Bonus if they find Gamora and she's totally into his muscles like Cotati metal fibers.
Other stuff:
Stoneless/damaged Thanos being a relatively easy kill, ha!
Banner Hulk is entertaining--and a reasonably happy resolution.
So Clint is now Most Wanted for multiple murders, yes? He took off his mask in sight of all those Tokyo cameras.
Several of the jokey exchanges went on several beats too long, trying to mitigate the tension and falling flat. (Pics in the diner scene, too much with Quill and Thor at the end.)
Frigga and the Ancient One both recognizing out-of-time people and being unfazed was terrific. Loved that.
I maybe wanted more Leverage-type shenanigans out of the time heist, but the movie clock was running.
Wanda and Carol tearing into Thanos, awesome.
Good balance with Carol--she used her power appropriately and didn't upstage everyone else. Fair! Also, several exchanges between Rhodey and Carol as nods to the comics.
Sam gets the shield, yassssss.
Past-Gamora smacking Quill, extra YES.
Speaking of alternate timelines, there's one where Loki is running around with the Tesseract, so he gets to live on to his tv series. (The trickster-magician probably knew that when he went all dagger-stupid suicidal on Thanos. He just wanted out of this timeline quickest.)
Morgan 3000 is going to be an unholy terror.
Cap returning the Soul Stone and encountering the Skull would've been worth seeing. Also, "America's ass," at least two readings on that.
IF leftover: Vision's data ("soul") is in Shuri's computers. Now that she's back, she can rebuild him better, faster, etc.
Second viewing:
Maybe enjoyed it a little more without the suspense, but it's not going to be a favorite.
Veteran game designer John Wick is quite angry about Natasha and has a rant worth reading. I'm not as angry, but the part about how heroes break the rules is spot on. (Not the bit about Gamora, though. She wasn't on Thanos's side.)
http://johnwickpresents.com/rants/redacted-died-for-your-sins-a-reflection-on-avengers-endgame/
I wish I could enjoy the female Avengers moment more.
That alt-Loki with the Tesseract isn't his best self, considering where in the timeline he is at that moment. Be careful what you wish for.
Still thinking about Steve's self-made AU and native!Steve of that timeline. Tricky; no matter where he comes in, it's an emotional mess for everyone involved.
Dammit, I really do want to see Steve return the stones in a series of tricky maneuvers. (Aside from the Skull encounter, he's gotta jab Jane with the Aether injector. "Sorry, Dr. Foster.")
And also his talk with Bucky before he leaves, because of course he did. But them not having that conversation--or any meaningful conversation--actually in the movie stings like hell in light of everything they've been through. Including, you know, Steve breaking up with Tony and being an exile and all on Bucky's behalf.
Long NYT article from the screenwriters, interesting:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/29/movies/avengers-endgame-explainer.html
-- and now I need to go read all your much smarter comments. :)
Endgame thoughts past the cut.
Endgame first viewing thoughts
Out of order, random.
I came away feeling...unsettled? And I'm the outlier who enjoyed Infinity War tremendously as a pure comic book experience playing out on screen. This one wasn't as satisfying to me overall.
They made an interesting choice by establishing two things: that the past could not be changed, and moving the time along to five years later. I think most people (including me) thought they would undo the Snap through time travel relatively quickly after the event; even if events couldn't be changed, the effects could be reversed. But in five years, people have grown and changed and moved on--and had kids, who could not be erased. So we end with a sticky compromise, which--as suits its nature--doesn't please everyone. (And presents a hell of a mess for the returned and the lives they reenter, but *Marvel handwaves.*)
(I admit to being wrong about two private predictions: one stone used by each of the six original Avengers, and that the Soul Stone would rebound on Thanos for his selfish sacrifice.)
After squinting over it a bit the time travel does actually make sense and is consistent*, near as I can tell. The returning the stones after the time heists was never about their own timeline; as Bruce says, [paraphrase] it's to prevent spawning a bunch of nasty alternate timelines. I was going to write them out but yay, someone got there first:
https://emisobsessed.tumblr.com/post/184458687634/time-loops-and-alternate-timelines
* Strange does actually reverse time in his movie and Thanos in IW, but I'm willing to concede that the Time Stone can break the rules in its particular domain.
Steve: It's definitely Steve's spotlight, which is great. He gets terrific scenes and the best line: two! words! heh. Of course he can lift Mjolnir, no shock there. Still mulling over the ending. Steve lived the rest of his life in an alternate timeline which means, fic people, this is an enormous playground. Life with Peggy, I'm sure they run the world. He also has accurate knowledge of near-future events--and you can be damn sure he's not going to let Bucky rot in Russian cryofreeze (so there's your Steve/Bucky and/or Steve/Peggy/Bucky opportunities, too*). Steve Rogers in any universe isn't living a quiet life. He can prevent Howard Stark's murder and tell Carol about Thanos gathering the stones. His being there starts with "change one thing" and QUICKLY changes the events of the rest of his timeline. Apparently it all works out okay. He also looked great for well past 100 years old, so the serum was still doing its thing.
(*And also! Does he also go and dig that timeline's native Steve out of the ice? Or prevent him going in at all? I say yes! A Steve for Peggy and a Steve for Bucky. And you get a Steve! And you get a Steve! :D)
Tony: No surprise there. An apt ending to what has been Tony's story from start to finish. I'm satisfied. I've never liked Tony Stark in the comics, but RDJ made him enjoyable.
Natasha: So I'm watching Nat and Clint fight over who gets to die, and -- what went through my mind and boggled me for the rest of the movie was, "They just threw their premiere female character off a cliff." Literally. It's not a fridging and it's a perfectly legitimate character choice, and I respect that the Soul Stone demanding a death price meant something permanent. But...but. Both sacrifices had to be women? I'm not bitter or angry, just...boggled. We'll see how I feel about it on the second viewing. I will say that as a result, the female Avengers assemble bit later on felt more self-congratulatory ("look! look how many women we have even without Black Widow!") than celebratory.
Thor: Deserved better. Big disappointment, not over his obvious depression and guilt and PTSD (all legitimate!), but on making him the butt of a running fat joke. But of course he's still worthy, and he should enjoy his grand space adventure with the morons. Bonus if they find Gamora and she's totally into his muscles like Cotati metal fibers.
Other stuff:
Stoneless/damaged Thanos being a relatively easy kill, ha!
Banner Hulk is entertaining--and a reasonably happy resolution.
So Clint is now Most Wanted for multiple murders, yes? He took off his mask in sight of all those Tokyo cameras.
Several of the jokey exchanges went on several beats too long, trying to mitigate the tension and falling flat. (Pics in the diner scene, too much with Quill and Thor at the end.)
Frigga and the Ancient One both recognizing out-of-time people and being unfazed was terrific. Loved that.
I maybe wanted more Leverage-type shenanigans out of the time heist, but the movie clock was running.
Wanda and Carol tearing into Thanos, awesome.
Good balance with Carol--she used her power appropriately and didn't upstage everyone else. Fair! Also, several exchanges between Rhodey and Carol as nods to the comics.
Sam gets the shield, yassssss.
Past-Gamora smacking Quill, extra YES.
Speaking of alternate timelines, there's one where Loki is running around with the Tesseract, so he gets to live on to his tv series. (The trickster-magician probably knew that when he went all dagger-stupid suicidal on Thanos. He just wanted out of this timeline quickest.)
Morgan 3000 is going to be an unholy terror.
Cap returning the Soul Stone and encountering the Skull would've been worth seeing. Also, "America's ass," at least two readings on that.
IF leftover: Vision's data ("soul") is in Shuri's computers. Now that she's back, she can rebuild him better, faster, etc.
Second viewing:
Maybe enjoyed it a little more without the suspense, but it's not going to be a favorite.
Veteran game designer John Wick is quite angry about Natasha and has a rant worth reading. I'm not as angry, but the part about how heroes break the rules is spot on. (Not the bit about Gamora, though. She wasn't on Thanos's side.)
http://johnwickpresents.com/rants/redacted-died-for-your-sins-a-reflection-on-avengers-endgame/
I wish I could enjoy the female Avengers moment more.
That alt-Loki with the Tesseract isn't his best self, considering where in the timeline he is at that moment. Be careful what you wish for.
Still thinking about Steve's self-made AU and native!Steve of that timeline. Tricky; no matter where he comes in, it's an emotional mess for everyone involved.
Dammit, I really do want to see Steve return the stones in a series of tricky maneuvers. (Aside from the Skull encounter, he's gotta jab Jane with the Aether injector. "Sorry, Dr. Foster.")
And also his talk with Bucky before he leaves, because of course he did. But them not having that conversation--or any meaningful conversation--actually in the movie stings like hell in light of everything they've been through. Including, you know, Steve breaking up with Tony and being an exile and all on Bucky's behalf.
Long NYT article from the screenwriters, interesting:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/29/movies/avengers-endgame-explainer.html
-- and now I need to go read all your much smarter comments. :)
no subject
Date: 2019-04-29 06:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-04-30 02:55 pm (UTC)There's a lot of good stuff in there, but it's--overshadowed, yeah.
(I didn't realize until finally scanning over my flist that you used the same title, heh.)
no subject
Date: 2019-04-30 08:50 pm (UTC)I kind of loved Endgame quite a bit, despite the parts I did not like, of which there were a few but nothing so great that I need to break up with it -- what I loved does outweigh what I did not like. But like most, the parts I did not like have to do with how it ended, which I agree kind of gives me an unsettled feeling. But I sill loved so much of it, that I'm okay.
I'm not on steady ground about Natasha -- meaning, yes I'm upset, vastly so because besides Steve, she was my first favorite, and I just hate to think she's not alive (and no matter what anyone says, I think she can be brought back). Like I can't really go there. But neither did her death upset me? I don't know. I also know I love her too much to be upset or angry about what happened. It's the same for Thor and Steve's endings, the parts about it I didn't like -- mostly I just feel love and will deal with what I don't like, which in the grand scheme of 22 movies, is relatively minor.
no subject
Date: 2019-04-30 10:59 pm (UTC)Yeah, I liked quite a lot of it! Except for the parts giving me issues. On Nat, I’m okay with it in-story but not the meta of how it was done, if that makes sense. And Thor has a long comic history of Big Space Adventures, so that made sense to me. He can help Carol sort out the aftermath of the un-Snap across the galaxy. :)
I watched all the movies before going into this and now want to do it all again. I’m just amazed by the overall relative consistency and strength of this franchise.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-01 02:41 am (UTC)I watched all the movies before going into this and now want to do it all again. I’m just amazed by the overall relative consistency and strength of this franchise.
Me tooooo. This is what made me cry the last time I watched Endgame -- the collective force of all 22 movies lnterlocked with each other.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-01 12:55 pm (UTC)I don't like the way they made time travel work here. It's painless. It's like when Comics!Tony rebooted himself after Civil War and lost the last two years of his life -- you know, the part where he got Steve killed and did all that stupid shit -- and it was a convenient way to have him escape all of the consequences of what he'd done. All someone has to do is grab some Pym Particles here and go get a Tony and it's the same thing and Morgan's got a dad again. Especially if it's a Tony from her lifetime, so it really is her dad.
I hated the Thor arc SO MUCH. Thor and his pain and his strength were one of the few things I really liked about IF and they just turned him into a punchline here while undoing that. Everyone breaks differently and you don't find out how until it happens, but I don't like the way they did it. Also, the whole theme of the Thor trilogy was about him learning to be king on his own terms and finally accepting the role when he was truly ready, after he'd gone through many more trials than the one Odin set in the first one. He takes his 'throne' on the ship and gives the little wave to his people and that was perfect. And then they undo it here, it felt like. Not abdicating in favor of Valkyrie, that was fine, but the rest of it.
You know how much of a Bucky fangirl I am, and I loved Brubaker's BuckyCap, but I'm okay with skipping straight to FalconCap. The screenwriters all but said that they'd be doing this a few movies ago, so I had time to prepare, but... 616!Bucky *needed* the gig; MCU!Bucky does not. MCU!Bucky has a lot to work with as far as a future arc, but MCU!Sam does not and so he needed this more. All is well.
I'm a little cranky that the movie stole my story idea, but I'm down with Steve's arc. It's a good nod to Old Man Steve in the comics and it's consistent with his movie personality and choices -- his being out of time is his trait -- and I frankly expected him to go back to Peggy and stay there, just without the old man appearance at the end. I even thought that that was why Bucky said he'd miss him -- Bucky'd figured out what he was doing and was giving his blessing. I'm firmly of the belief that 2023 Cap should have cleaned 2011 Cap's clock because the whole thing in CA:tWS was that Steve had spent time learning how to do modern hand-to-hand with all sorts of new styles, but I'll just go with "Steve was really pulling his punches" on that score.
Bruce... Fandom!MCU!Bruce is gentle and thoughtful and zen and sweet and could use and would accept a cuddle, but actual!MCU!Bruce is kind of not that at all and the 2023 version shouted that pretty loudly.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-01 03:34 pm (UTC)Time travel is probably too easy now, but it still ends up with the two Steves problem. Other-timeline Tony already has a Morgan and wouldn't want to leave her; grabbing Tony out of the past just creates another alternate timeline (a doomed one, if he's not there to fight Thanos). It's potentially doable but I'm hoping no one's dumb enough to try.
Yep, I'm good with Sam getting the shield. This Bucky just wants to rest, dammit. (He won't get it.) Bucky's "I'll miss you" definitely indicated they talked about Steve leaving.
Steve was absolutely pulling his punches, I thought so as I was watching both times. Age and experience, etc.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-01 03:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-05-01 03:54 pm (UTC)